Podcast
Ep. 11 Transcript: Veteran Peer Support with Anthony Swann
Transcript
DANIELLE DONALDSON: Welcome to Peer Into Recovery, a podcast with a focus on the profession of peer support. For more information about how to subscribe, please visit our website at www.vprsn.org. Welcome, everyone, and thank you for joining us. I am your host, Danielle Donaldson. In this episode, I’m going to be speaking with Anthony Swann about veteran peer support. A native of North Carolina, Anthony Swann enlisted in the Marine Corps Infantry in 1983, and has served with four separate infantry battalions taught at the School of Infantry, served as a senior drill instructor, and as an assistant Marine officer instructor at the University of Wisconsin. He has also served as command and base sergeant major for a combat logistics regimen in Okinawa, Japan, and lastly, as the director of the staff non-commissioned officers academy in Quantico, Virginia. During his tenure in the Marine Corps, Swann served two tours in Iraq with an infantry battalion, during which he was injured and received the Purple Heart.
Upon retirement, after 27 years of active duty service, Swann continued to serve the military as a recovery care coordinator for the Marine Corps Wounded Warrior Regiment, providing resources and services to wounded, ill, and injured Marines. In this capacity, he also served as recovery care coordinator site lead, providing direction and resources to coordinators in Texas, Minnesota, Florida, and Virginia. And has also held the position of acting deputy program manager for the recovery care program and oversaw 42 recovery care coordinators across the United States. Upon joining Virginia Veteran and Family Support, Swann has served as the recovery coordinator for Region 1 until his reassignment as the Senior Veteran Peer Specialist for VVFS. A resident of Fredericksburg, Virginia, Swann is currently the Peer Services Director for the Virginia Veteran and Family Support Program. Hi, Anthony. welcome and thank you for joining me today. How are you doing?
ANTHONY SWANN: I am doing fine and glad to be able to join you.
DANIELLE DONALDSON: Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate you coming on the podcast to talk about peer support for veterans. I’m excited to learn more about it. So to begin, let’s get started. What inspired you to get involved in peer support? How did you make that transition?
ANTHONY SWANN: So, as you read in my bio, I exited the Marine Corps in 2010. I had no set career path. I had no idea what I wanted to do or which way I was going to go. I actually thought I was going to join the federal government, federal service, and I was going to be sitting behind a desk. But I was speaking with a friend of mine that worked at the Wounded Warrior Regiment about how we needed to do a better job of supporting our wounded, ill, and injured through the IDES system and upon their exit from the Marine Corps. And he seemed to be intrigued by what I was saying. He asked me if I wanted to work at the Wounded Warrior Regiment and I was hired. So I worked there for about four years and was informed of an opening with the Virginia Department of Veterans Services. So I thought to myself, I am a veteran and it would be good to help those like myself. So I applied and was hired as a Regional Coordinator and was contacted by my boss about a year later about a new program they were implementing. That new program was the Peer Support Program. I thought it would be something great. So I was tasked, I got hired and I was tasked with helping to get it started and laying the basic foundation for the programs. And I’ve been working to improve and grow the programs since that time.
DANIELLE DONALDSON: So, let me ask you this. When you were just speaking, it made me think of this. Did you have any informal experience with Peer Support before you entered into this kind of line of work?
ANTHONY SWANN: No, I didn’t. But I found that even when I was in the military, that I could talk to junior marines and I could get them to want to do the things that I asked them to do. And then there were other people. You know, in my family, I’ve always been a type of leader in my family. So it was just natural. So, no, I didn’t have any prior Peer Support training. It’s just something that over life, I’ve actually done. I just didn’t know that’s what I was doing.
DANIELLE DONALDSON: Right, right. Yeah. Yeah, that’s what I was kind of thinking was just kind of the natural environment. I think of the military and this is just an assumption on my part because I’ve never served myself. But, you know, it is very much a peer environment and that you’re all, you know, looking out for each other, you know, regardless of the circumstances, I would say. And please correct me if I’m wrong about that.
ANTHONY SWANN: Oh, no, you’re absolutely right. We all need to have someone. Well, I put it to this way. There were people, and I remember when I first came in the military, there were people I just looked up to. I emulated them. I think a lot of the things that I think and do today came from those people. They were, they were my leaders, but I could talk to them. I could tell them some of the things that I was thinking. In the military, you never tell them everything you’re thinking because it gets you in trouble. I could tell them the things I was thinking, and they would take that time to talk to me and say, well, this is what I believe or this is what you should do. Honestly, their word to me was the gospel. I found that out there were certain people that looked at me the same way.
DANIELLE DONALDSON: Well, it’s nice, I guess, that you found some positive role models in that type of environment. And it’s good to have people to look up to. So coming from, I come from a mental health peer support environment. So that’s kind of my lived experience. But I’m wondering, what does peer support with veterans look like? Does it, do you know if it differs from peer support, like amongst civilians? Do you guys do things differently or could you explain a little bit about that?
ANTHONY SWANN: Sure. So I’ll start with peer support for veterans. And we were talking about just a few seconds ago. Actually, all branches of the military have commonalities. It doesn’t matter what branch you are. You can be Marines, Navy, Army, Air Force, National Guard, or Coast Guard. We share a common experience and bond. You can let two of us get together, but do not know each other. And normally, we can have a very easy conversation. It’s natural. But that’s what peer support is about, using that common experience to relate to someone, provide that feeling that they are speaking to someone who has been there and gets it. So peer support from veteran to veteran normally starts on this common ground, develops according to the veteran’s experiences. If a veteran hasn’t been in combat, I don’t talk to him about combat. I talk to him about the person life that we had. The standing in the formation on a Friday afternoon, the rain pouring down for two hours waiting on the company, because I need to come out and pass word. And it was over 120 of us out there and we all soaked. And he decides to come out and say, I have nothing to pass. If you want to see a bunch of people angry, but it was a common thing. And we stand by for it for the next Friday. But from here, from that common ground, from here, the peer support representatives use their behavioral health barriers to forge that relationship and hopefully deepen that connection. Peer support between civilians? That’s a hard question for me to answer. I have always worked with veterans or active duty military. I would think it would be close to the same without the military connection. The concept is the same. Find that coming around and provide that needed support.
DANIELLE DONALDSON: So, let me ask you this because again, in Virginia, our peer recovery specialists are trained to kind of work across, I guess, the spectrum of mental health, substance use co-occurring. Ideally, you should be able to help a peer, regardless of the background, but you’re still coming at it with your own lived experience. I’m wondering, in a veteran peer support situation, do you usually find that you focus on kind of the mental health versus the substance use on that type of connection, or do you focus on the veteran connection, the experiences that you had in the military? I guess I’m wondering where you find that connection.
ANTHONY SWANN: Yeah. The connection usually for us starts with the military connection. And as you know, military can be tight-lipped. They can be very standoffish if they think that you do not understand their situations. So normally you start there, but we also, like other peer supporters across the state, we all have a behavioral health connection also. So sometimes it’s finding out, finding the peer supporter that I have that may have a substance, have had a substance abuse issue later on in life or during his time in life, or all of us, I hate to say all of us, that’s not true, but most of us have PTSD and TBI. And you remember that most military is trauma related and a trauma, a lot of that trauma is PTSD, TBI for a lot of us. So we can speak to that. The majority of us can speak to that very easily because we’ve been through it and we’re still being treated for it.
DANIELLE DONALDSON: So what type of kind of venues is veteran peer support happening? I know I’ve personally interacted with some peer specialists at the different veteran hospitals, but how are you doing it? Where is it happening here in Virginia?
ANTHONY SWANN: Well, us here on the veteran side of the Department of Veterans Services, we are a community based peer services. And I think we are one of the few in the state. We are not in a clinical setting. So, we are in the community. We are looking for that veteran that has not connected with anyone. The one that the spouse calls us up and says, hey, my husband needs help. We’re looking for the one that calls us on the phone and says, I know I need something, but I just don’t understand what it is. We are looking for people who can help us a lot. So, we could be anywhere. We are in coffee shops. We’re the veteran who feels comfortable at. We’re in coffee shops. We’re in parks. We could be standing in the middle of the road if that’s necessary. Wherever that veteran feels that he would like to talk to us, that’s where we’re going to go. And once we can get them connected, then we’re going to start talking to them about behavioral health and let them know that we’ve done it, we’ve been there, we understand, and that there’s nothing wrong with accepting behavioral health services.
DANIELLE DONALDSON: Well, I had no idea that we had veteran community services available here in Virginia. Like I said, most of the interactions I’ve had so far have been with peer specialists that are working within the hospitals. How did you guys adapt during the pandemic? Have you been doing it mostly virtually or how have you handled that?
ANTHONY SWANN: We have been mostly virtual, but we have, and this is what I’ve been working with my peer support representatives, is that if we need to meet with someone, we just need that phone call. Like I said, we meet out in the community, so we don’t mind meeting in that coffee shop. I keep using the coffee shop, but I don’t know why that’s only one on my mind right now, but it stands out for some reason, because I guess I just had a coffee with a veteran not too long ago. But yes, we are virtual, but if the veteran calls and he says that he wants to meet us in person, we are fine with that. We’ve done Zoom calls, Google meets, a lot of phones. We will accommodate any veteran in the community that says that he needs to talk to us.
DANIELLE DONALDSON: How many peer specialists do you have working there in Fredericksburg?
ANTHONY SWANN: Here in Fredericksburg, there’s one. But we are growing. I have just been given the okay to hire six more.
DANIELLE DONALDSON: Excellent.
ANTHONY SWANN: Yes. We are growing. We are going to get them trained here and get them out in the field and watch them do great works.
DANIELLE DONALDSON: Do you know of any other localities here in Virginia that have community veteran services?
ANTHONY SWANN: There is one more.
DANIELLE DONALDSON: Veteran Community Services?
ANTHONY SWANN: Well, I think there is one. I think they also work in clinicals. So I’m going to have to say no right now. For some reason, in my mind, there is, but I can’t remember who it is right now. My concentration has been on us and the things that we need to do to make ourselves better.
DANIELLE DONALDSON: Right. Yeah. No, that just blows my mind, because it does seem like that would be such an urgent need. Just making it easier. When you can make it as easy as meeting in a coffee shop, not that that’s easy, because even that can take a tremendous amount of a leap of faith, but it’s much less intimidating than having to go through a bureaucratic paperwork and appointments and waiting six months or more to see somebody, and that sort of thing. When you can make it as simple as a phone call that opens that up to so many more people.
ANTHONY SWANN: Absolutely. I was going to say, some of the best work I have done is when a veteran comes into my office, and as we are talking, and a desk shows that you are in a position of authority. So I don’t care where you are, if you sit behind a desk and you’re talking to someone, they see you as a position of authority. And one of the best things in this world I do, one of the best times I’ve had is when I say, hey, let’s go outside. And behind the building where I work here in Freshburg there’s a beautiful garden, there’s three lakes. And just to walk up and down that path, and there’s two veterans just talking to each other, you can feel that person relax. And you can feel as we start to talk about military days and which is what we used to start on, we start talking about their behavioral health needs. That relaxation is an awesome thing because then they begin to open up. And as we’re walking and we’re talking, maybe it’s in my head, but it seems like the trust begins to grow. So normally by the time I finish that first walk, I feel very comfortable that that person will give me a call back or talk to me. And I’ve made some good headway with just that.
DANIELLE DONALDSON: So do you offer mostly one-on-one peer services, or do you offer any type of groups or workshops? What else? What is kind of a day in the life look like for you? What type of different services are you providing?
ANTHONY SWANN: So what we do is we offer the one-on-one, of course. It’s making that connection and everything. But we also do groups. Right now, I’m running three groups across the state, they’re all virtual. We’re not doing it in person yet. And as a matter of fact, I’m looking into that, see where for when I can start those back. One of those groups is a veteran female group, which I’m very proud of. The lady who runs it is awesome. And I think that they are having a great time just talking amongst themselves on veteran matters, matters that affect females that have exited the military. So we have three at the moment. I intend to start two more and they’ll all be virtual. And what I intend to do is to, once they are very into that group, send that link and let veterans choose the one that best suits them. So that’s the intent. I’m hoping to have that up and running here by November.
DANIELLE DONALDSON: Oh, that sounds excellent. Are there any particular challenges that you face when it comes to trying to provide peer support for veterans?
ANTHONY SWANN: Yes, there’s always challenges. I think the biggest challenge, especially since we are working in a community setting, is bonding and gaining that trust. Since we are not in a clinical setting at times, we have really only one chance to bond with that veteran. So we let that veteran know that we are really here to help them, and it’s not just a job, but we really want to help them. So you got to understand, because we are in a clinical setting, when that veteran sits down in front of us, and if we don’t get him to understand that when he walks out, we may not see that veteran again. If he feels that we are not getting authentic, or that we really don’t care, when he stands up, we may have lost him, and he’s not going to answer the phone, and he’s not going to call us back. So that’s one of the biggest things right now, that is one of the biggest challenges. So it’s critical that we use every tool we have to gain his or her trust if we want to help him. And so, bonding and gaining trust is two of the biggest challenges, but there is also the other. The other is waiting on that veteran to turn the corner, or should I say to accept that he or she needs that behavioral health assistance. Sometimes it’s fairly quickly, but veterans have been trained for so long that asking for help is a sign of weakness, or that if they seek behavioral health assistance, the job opportunities will be lost. So it’s not easy to convince them in those kinds of cases, and it takes so much time, especially when you say, in your mind, you’re saying to yourself, oh, if you would just work with me here. I know I can help you, I can bring you out of the issue that you’re in, I can get you closer to being feeling normal again. But military is get it done, here’s the problem, get it done, get it over with. And with peer support, that’s not always the case. We know what the problem is, but we have to wait until that person decides that they want to move forward. And I think sometimes that is a challenge to all of us that do this type of work.
DANIELLE DONALDSON: True, true. It very much is sometimes kind of a very long, long game.
ANTHONY SWANN: Yeah, exactly.
DANIELLE DONALDSON: You’re playing a long game of hoping that they’ll find a way to decide that they want to make a change.
ANTHONY SWANN: Oh, yeah.
DANIELLE DONALDSON: So if any civilian peer supporter were to come across a veteran in their work, for some, you know, for whatever reason, they haven’t, you know, the veteran hasn’t seeked out veteran services, but kind of stumbled into ordinary civilian community services. What would you recommend a civilian peer supporter to do when they’re working with a veteran? Do you have any particular resources or anything for them?
ANTHONY SWANN: Um, yes, but…
DANIELLE DONALDSON: Or do you just recommend that maybe they ask them to, you know, seek out your organization?
ANTHONY SWANN: Well, I always recommend they seek out our organization, but, you know, civilian peer supporters, I would tell them this. Always keep in mind that we are a diverse population with certain values that have been ingrained in us due to military service. So, some of these values are going to make it difficult to provide connections to some of the veterans. But if you’ve gained their trust, don’t break it. There is a course that Virginia Veterans and Family Support Program Office, and there’s other courses, too. It’s called the Military Cultural Competency Course. I would always recommend you to take that. Because it’s going to answer a lot of questions about who veterans are, how we think, phrases that are okay, how to use those phrases, and things that you shouldn’t say. So it’s great in that regard. It’ll teach you quite a bit so that you can start to work with that veteran. The last thing I will always tell people is to be truthful. If you don’t know, you don’t know. Don’t pretend. Don’t say you understand combat when you say it, but you’ve never been there. So if you don’t pretend and tell the truth, battles normally will be okay with you at the least.
DANIELLE DONALDSON: Thank you for sharing that resource. I would love to get the link from you. I did not know that existed, but that sounds like something that would be very valuable resource. Absolutely. And speaking, I guess, as the daughter of a veteran, do you have any suggestions for family members? We have family support partners here in Virginia. So I guess, yeah, do you have any recommendations for people that might just be families of veterans, family members of veterans? Did that make sense?
ANTHONY SWANN: Yeah, I understand that you. So I think the biggest thing I hear from veterans is that nobody listens. I think family members need to learn the distance between hearing and listening. And there are things out here that can teach you that, because we hear people all the time. We hear, we hear, but we don’t listen. And there’s little things that people give us that we just miss, especially family members. I mean, I’m, oh god, I’m ready to throw myself under the bus here, but I know my wife talks to me sometimes. I hear, I always hear, but I don’t always listen. So as family members, I think one of the things that we need to do is to listen. And the more we listen, the more a veteran normally will open up. But they’ve got to believe that you are trying to understand by just hearing what they’re saying. And there are some courses on that that could be helpful. I don’t work much with family members on the peer support side of the house, but we do on the resource side of the house. So I can definitely see if I can find some things there to send you to, if you would like to have them.
DANIELLE DONALDSON: Oh, absolutely. I usually create a page for each episode. And so if there’s any links that you would like to share with others, I’m happy to put them on the page so they can find them later. Absolutely. So if you’ve, do you have any recommendations or suggestions if there are people out there who are interested in offering veteran peer support? What type of individual would you recommend? I mean, obviously, I guess a veteran. But beyond that, are there part-time opportunities out there, full-time opportunities out there, trainings? If there’s someone out there listening to this that thinks, wow, I’d like to do that type of work, what would you suggest for them?
ANTHONY SWANN: Okay. So let me say this as far as the individual who’s looking for to do peer support. And I think this is very important. First of all, you have to look within yourself. If you don’t have patience and empathy, and it will just go to the extra mile, this job isn’t for you. If you’re struggling and triggering due to events in your past, I would not recommend this job. There are so many things that you’re going to have to work through for your veteran and civilian too. I think that’s due to any peer support. That it can be jarring sometimes, and it can make you think about things in your past that has happened. But you have to be able to put that in proper perspective, because your jobs, they have that person in front of you. But also, if you find that you can easily bond with someone, that they like talking to you, they seek you out and are comfortable with being around you, then you’re halfway there to being a veteran peer specialist or peer specialist trivia. And I think that’s what it’s all about. One of the major things is, can you get this person to want to talk to you? That’s the first thing. If this person will seek you out, or people are always seeking you out to talk to you about what’s going on in their lives, I think you are halfway there. It’s just in getting the proper training and getting into the problem of atmosphere. For veterans also, understanding the cultural, I can say the military cultural companies, classes, and the values. It’s a great guide to connect with many other veterans that will come into contact with you. As far as opportunities are concerned, we do not, in my program, we do not take…
DANIELLE DONALDSON: Like volunteers?
ANTHONY SWANN: Volunteers, yes. But there are others that will use you. I just don’t have that list with me right now, and I can’t think of any of them at the moment. There are those. We are full time in my organization. Yes, there are opportunities out there. I think that there are other veterans organizations that would be more than happy to part time. They will take you and work with you part time as much as possible. I think ORS sometimes puts out a different part time and full time peer support opportunities.
DANIELLE DONALDSON: Are there any veteran-specific training, you know, peer specialist training courses?
ANTHONY SWANN: Not outside of our organization. I do all of the training for our organization, the communications, how to communicate with somebody, looking for assessments, body language, how speech patterns and things like that. For veteran-specifics, I have not had anybody outside of my organization. It’s something that I put together. I went to a class by given by a guy by the name of Robin Drake. I love what he said about how to get people to believe in you. And I based it on some of his course that he had. It was something that I believed in. I have been thinking all my life. And so, so far, it’s not working bad. But I do not know of another such training.
DANIELLE DONALDSON: Okay. I just was curious. Every day, it seems like we’re getting more and more topic-specific peer support training classes. Absolutely. So, I assume that with time, we’ll see some more veteran-specific ones as well.
ANTHONY SWANN: Absolutely. I’m sure we will.
DANIELLE DONALDSON: So, do you have any final thoughts or anything left that you’d like to share before we wrap this up?
ANTHONY SWANN: The only thing I will say is, and I don’t know, this should be a pitch for my organization, but peer support, especially for veterans, is something that is very important and dear to us. We have a lot of veterans coming back, especially those that are coming back from Afghanistan now. And there’s a lot of trauma there. There’s a lot of hurt. The Marines that was killed there, I did not know them, but to me, they were my brothers and sisters. So, to me, I did know them. And there’s a lot of other veterans in the country right now that are very frustrated, angry, and feel that they’ve been let down. Just be aware of those veterans. Talk to them. Let them know that they are loved and cared for. And that what they did was not in vain. If any veteran would like to talk, by all means, we are here for you in any capacity that you think that we could help you.
DANIELLE DONALDSON: Well, please feel free to share. I mean, we want to share resources, so please feel free to share your website and phone number. And I’ll post it on the website as well.
ANTHONY SWANN: So I’ll tell you, my name is, as you know, my name is Anthony Swann. I work for the Virginia Veterans and Family Support Program. I am the Peer Support Director. And my number is 540-840-3003. And I’m more than willing to have anyone that needs assistance.
DANIELLE DONALDSON: Well, thank you so much. Thank you, Anthony, for your service, for what you’re currently doing and for joining me today. And thank you for listening to the Peer Into Recovery podcast brought to you by the Virginia Peer Recovery Specialist Network and Mental Health America of Virginia. If you would like our show, if you like our show and would like to subscribe to the podcast, please visit our website at www.vprsn.org. And please leave us a review on iTunes. Take good care of yourselves.
