Podcast
Ep. 6 Transcript: Peer Job Development with Cynthia Evans
Transcript
DANIELLE DONALDSON: Welcome to Peer Into Recovery, a podcast with a focus on the profession of peer support. For more information about how to subscribe, please visit our website at www.vprsn.org. Welcome, everyone. Thank you for joining us. I am your host, Danielle Donaldson. In this episode, I’m going to be speaking with Cynthia Evans about peer job development. Cynthia Evans has worked for peer run mental health and disability organizations on the local, state, and national levels. Over the last 25 years, she has worked as a peer support specialist, job developer, trainer, consultant, and program director. Administration, grant writing and management, training, and group facilitation are among her many skills professionally. A native of Detroit, she is a gifted speaker who seeks to use life lessons learned to enhearten her peers, which means to encourage, to give confidence to, and to embolden others. Hi, Cynthia. Thank you for joining me today. How are you doing?
CYNTHIA EVANS: I’m doing just great. Thank you so much for having me.
DANIELLE DONALDSON: Well, thank you for taking the time. I appreciate it. And hopefully, yes, you’re a more gifted speaker than I am. So let’s just get started. Do you want to let everyone know briefly how you got started in peer support?
CYNTHIA EVANS: Sure. As I said, I’m originally from Detroit and I moved to Northern Virginia when I was 21, and had had a difficult time holding down a job, actually. I was doing a lot of telemarketing, a lot of door-to-door sales, and it took a while before I found a place where I was able to use my skills and places that was a good fit, which was a trade association. And I was working as sort of an admin assistant and was there for seven years total. And around my fifth year, I was feeling the desire to work in the mental health field. I had had depression and borderline personality disorder. And like a lot of people come from kind of a dysfunctional background. And I just, I really was starting to feel some stability in my life that I wanted to get back. So I happened to come across this flyer for a new Peer Run drop-in center. And I heard that one of the best ways to break into a new field, if you don’t have a degree, is to volunteer. So I gave them a call and asked if they could use any volunteers. And they asked me, how soon could I get there? So, and this was in 1996. And I started answering the phones, answering the doors, giving general information about the services. And as the organization grew, I sort of grew along with it. And I worked as a peer support specialist eventually, and a job developer eventually, and the program director there. I was there for 12 years.
DANIELLE DONALDSON: So what led you to become particularly interested in peer job development?
CYNTHIA EVANS: It was a few things. I’ve always liked the idea of teaching. I used to want to be an English teacher until I found out how much they made. And I like to write. And the place where I worked was a place that helped folks with employment. And I found that I was able to help people with resumes and cover letters. And because there was a need for it, I also started learning more about the employment specialist field. And that led to me being able to do workshops on resumes, cover letters, interviewing, and all the different nuts and bolts in finding a job. And I think one of the motivating factors for me was that employment had really changed my life and had opened up opportunities for me that I never thought would be open. And I just, I wanted to share that with as many people as possible. Growing up in Detroit, I was poor. And just a little bit about my background. I come from a family where my mother struggled with schizophrenia and alcoholism and drug addiction. And my father took care of me most of the time. But when I was 13, I became the ward of the courts in Michigan. And between the ages of 13 and 24, I lived in about 27 different places. Group homes, foster homes, homeless shelters, semi-independent living, homeless, mental hospitals. And there was just really no stability in my life. And again, having a stable job at a place where I felt respected made a huge difference. And I just, I wanted to share that with as many people as possible.
DANIELLE DONALDSON: Oh, excuse me. Yeah, I can definitely see how that would, you know, the search for stability, you know, in some cases, you know, you do spend a lot of time at your job, and that becomes kind of a second home in some ways. So, you know, feeling comfortable in that position.
CYNTHIA EVANS: Well, and the other thing too is that it was a place where I, when I got the job, they didn’t know that I was a peer, but my depression was showing at work. I was crying at work, and I shared with my employers that I had depression, and I was really fortunate to have some understanding and intelligent employers. And they just said, well, whatever it is you need to feel supported, we’re here for you. And the thing that I was most scared of was the kick gloves treatment. I didn’t want them treating me different. And I remember the day after that I shared with my supervisor that I was depressed, she came into my office and said, so how are you feeling today? And I said, I feel good. Great. This is what I needed to do today. And I just felt so relieved. So yeah, I was fortunate. And I know that not that that’s not always the case with everyone.
DANIELLE DONALDSON: Right, right. So on that note, I guess, since you’ve been doing this for quite a while, what types of challenges have you noticed that peers and even peer recovery specialists face in their job search?
CYNTHIA EVANS: You know, to be candid, I really believe that we face the same challenges first and foremost, the same challenges that everybody else does. Depending on where you live, the job market may be slow or limiting. Some of us don’t have degrees or we may have trouble knowing how to market ourselves to an employer. sometimes people aren’t skilled at writing resumes or cover letters that show them in their best light. sometimes they don’t know how to use the best references. Interviewing can be a hangout for a lot of people. I’ve seen a lot of folks who are capable of doing the jobs for which they are applying, but there are things that happen in the interview that keep them from getting hired. So I think first and foremost, the same thing as everybody else. Plus, on top of that, mental health challenges and substance use disorder, co-occurring disorders, those things can contribute to some of us not being able to have a stable job history, and that’s something that employees look for.
For people wanting to work in a peer specialist field, peer support is still a pretty new career field. And comparatively speaking, there aren’t as many openings as there are with some other social service or behavioral health positions. So to begin with, there’s a limited number of jobs, and a lot of people competing for those jobs. I think another thing that I’ve noticed is that, aside from the people skills and the peer support skills are needed to do this kind of work, having good computer skills is really important. And sometimes that gets overlooked. If we’re helping people to find resources online, or we’re helping folks fill out applications, or we need to create presentations for trainings or recovery groups, all those things require a certain level of comfort with using general office software and using the internet. And we also need to be able to do data entry and just the same skills that everyone else who works in behavioral health need in order to do their jobs on a day-to-day basis. We need those skills also. So those are some of the challenges that I’ve observed with people finding employment. Some are common to everyone, some are very specific to peers. But finding a job, particularly in this day and age during COVID is hard. And I think that there are some things that we need to make sure that we’re doing in terms of our persistence, and finding other people that are also job seeking, and people that we can go to for support and accountability. I think all those things are really important.
DANIELLE DONALDSON: Well, and I think you’re fortunate that you have the the Laurie Mitchell Employment Center up there in Northern Virginia with you. So I’m sure that’s probably a good resource for a lot of peers and peer specialists that are in that region. But, and you probably can’t answer this question, but I’ll ask you anyway. Do you know of any other similar types of resources? And maybe other parts of Virginia?
CYNTHIA EVANS: I can’t say that I do, but I can say that most government agencies do have some sort of employment resources available in the community, whether it’s the state employment office or county employment offices. There are even non-profits that help people who are low income to find work. There are job clubs. There are sometimes churches. The way that we find jobs is varied. And one of the things that I noticed is that sometimes we may rely on only one or two methods for finding work, when we need to make sure that we’re tapping into all of these different resources. I know that there are a lot of government-funded organizations in different counties that help people find work, but those can sometimes be difficult to get to, which is why it’s really important if people are able to access computers, if you’re able to have a certain level of comfort with being able to research things online. Because anything that you want to know how to do, you can find out online, but if you don’t have access to computers or if you’re not comfortable using them, then that’s a resource that you wouldn’t be able to. As I’m talking, I’m reminded of this old 20th century place that we used to go for information. Do you remember those things called libraries?
DANIELLE DONALDSON: I knew that was coming.
CYNTHIA EVANS: I had to dig to get to that one.
DANIELLE DONALDSON: Yeah, I mean, they obviously are a wealth of information. Of course, the COVID crisis makes it more difficult. Hopefully, this is all temporary. But, yeah, a library is, and librarians themselves are a wonderful resource.
CYNTHIA EVANS: All right, and something you’ll often find in libraries are groups that meet. The number one way of finding a job is still networking. It’s not monster.com or careerbuilder.com or even LinkedIn. It’s still your personal network, and when you get around other people, you start to find out about opportunities that you wouldn’t hear about otherwise.
DANIELLE DONALDSON: Well, and let me ask you a question about that, because I think I’ve probably talked about this on the podcast before. I actually have pretty severe social anxiety, and so networking, particularly in person, is really just even just talking about it kind of sets me on edge. So do you have any particular skills, not skills, but what do you recommend for peers who want to build their network, but that’s something that they struggle with as well?
CYNTHIA EVANS: Baby steps. And I think that if you’re part of any sort of support group, that’s always a good place to start. There are recovery programs that deal specifically with finances, where you can talk with other people that are also looking to make career changes. I like the idea of practicing with my friends I’m also a 12-stepper, and I’ve been able to pick up the phone and say, hey, I need to go to such and such event. And believe it or not, I’m not always comfortable dealing with crowds. I’m an introvert, and I would much rather be by myself than to have to be in a room full of people and have to interact. And just getting tips from people over the phone that know me helps. And it also helps to not set unrealistic expectations. I don’t have to go into a situation and be the life of the party. I can just go and sit and listen and partake of whatever food and beverages and free stuff they have there. And I can make it a point to introduce myself to one person. And that’s it. And it’s just, it’s baby steps.
DANIELLE DONALDSON: So, because this podcast is, you know, our audience is peer recovery specialists. How can peer recovery specialists support the peers that they work with in their job search or their job development?
CYNTHIA EVANS: Well, first of all, role playing. You know, being the people that help people with networking, or if someone doesn’t know how to co-call, if they want to work retail, being someone that you can do a role play with, pretend that you’re coming into the store and asking about, you know, are you hiring? Is there an application? What can you tell me about the business? That’s the second most important thing that I think peer recovery specialists can do to help people. The most important thing, and this is just my personal opinion, which is not humble at all, by the way, the most important thing is we can help people dream. I don’t think we dream enough. I don’t think we allow ourselves to dream enough. I had a job developer when I was 22 years old who asked me a huge question. He said, how would you like to make $25,000 a year? What do you think your life would be like if you made that much money? And I was getting, I don’t know, something like $400, $450 a month. And I was living in a residential program, had never held down a job longer than four months at a time. So $25,000 a year was just that my life would be amazing. And he and I worked together, and we just took some baby steps, or he helped me take baby steps. And within a couple of years, I was making $25,000 a year. Now, what he didn’t tell me was that by the time I was making that much money, my lifestyle would be completely different, and I would have a car note and insurance, and I’d be paying my own rent, and I would need $30,000 to be comfortable if you left that part out.
DANIELLE DONALDSON: Right.
CYNTHIA EVANS: But yeah, I think one of the things that I’ve seen often is fear of losing benefits, and this fear that if I get a job and I lose my benefits, what if something happens? I could end up homeless again. And as somebody who has been homeless, I know how real that fear is. I also know what it feels like to get keys to a car. Because when I took driver’s ed at 15, I got in an accident, and I just figured that poor, mentally ill people from Detroit aren’t supposed to drive. Until I got a job where everybody at the office was driving except me. And I’m like, well, you know, they keep coming to me to ask how to fix the copier, and they all drive. So maybe this driving thing isn’t that hard. I would like Peer Recovery Specialists to encourage people to dream a little. And not that everybody who comes to us and says, I want to be a doctor, I want to be a lawyer, I want to be president of the United states, help me do that, that we’re just, oh yeah, you can do whatever you want. I think, I think if there are dreams, and if we’re working with people to try to make those dreams a reality, people tend to get further than if we encourage them to just stay safe, and in some cases, stay poor. There’s a lot of poverty among peers, and I think it’s very intelligent for people to guard their income, and if they’re receiving SSI or SSDI, I do not believe that people should just get rid of their benefits and go to work, and whatever happens, happens. But I do believe that encouraging people to live as far away from benefits as they’re able to. Yeah, that’s what I advocate for.
DANIELLE DONALDSON: Yeah, that makes sense. I know that that, I’ve heard that come up a lot as well. The concern about losing benefits. Yet, the, you’re absolutely right. You know, the need for humans to dream is so very important. And we need to encourage that in as many ways as possible. To keep hope alive. So, again, on the subject of Peer Recovery Specialists, what do you see for the future of the profession and professional development for PRSs? Do you have any insights as to what you see happening?
CYNTHIA EVANS: Well, I think one thing that’s needed is we need more job positions beside just Peer Recovery Specialists, because those jobs are often part-time or they don’t pay that well. And if you’ve been a Peer Recovery Specialist for a while, it would be nice to know that there’s a career path, that you can eventually become a supervisor or a director, or if you have a particular aspect of Peer Specialist work that you’re really good at, that you can continue in this field doing just that. For example, if you really enjoy facilitating peer support groups, it would be great if there were different positions that opened up that allowed people to do that, but also do it at a higher level, so that you can move from mid-30s to mid-50s to mid-70s in terms of annual salary. That’s one thing. The other is, I think, is more peer-run organizations open. Every organization needs people to run it. There need to be managers, supervisors. Somebody has to do accounting, somebody has to do marketing, someone has to do the communications piece, the online piece, and I think a lot of us get into this field because we want so much to help others. And I actually found pretty early on that I didn’t want to continue being a peer recovery specialist because I have other skills, I have other things that I enjoy doing. And I also found that for me, I do a lot of peer support in my personal life, and I felt better not having to do it as part of my job. But for the last 25 years, I’ve always worked at organizations that are working towards the greater good. So if I was a program director, or if I was consulting, or helping with fundraising, or doing trainings, I was still contributing to things that I believed in. I was still working in the mental health and behavioral health field. So, something else that I encourage peer recovery specialists to think about is, are there other types of jobs that you can be doing that allow you to do things that you enjoy, that allow you to have a comfortable living, and still allow you to say, hey, you know, I’m using the best parts of myself to help other people in recovery, even if it’s not on that one-on-one basis?
DANIELLE DONALDSON: Yeah, I think that’s absolutely important. We at the Virginia Peer Recovery Specialist Network do see how many people out there that are aspiring peer specialists, they really want to get into the field. But as you said, number one, it’s still a new profession, so the jobs are not out there, they’re not on every street corner yet. And then of course, unfortunately, you add on the current COVID crisis, which has made things more difficult. But yeah, there needs to be a career path because there’s a lot of people that have been doing this job for a long time already. So of course, they want to grow and develop and expand the profession and as well as make room for the new people who want to come in. And I’m with you, one-on-one peer support is not really my particular specialty, but I am able to work within peer support, supporting peer specialists and using some other skills that I’ve picked up along the way. So I agree with you. I think it’s very important to encourage people who are interested in peer support that it doesn’t all have to be the one-on-one and you can bring your other skills that you’ve collected along the way. In this profession, there’s a lot of different ways to do peer support.
CYNTHIA EVANS: The other thing along those lines is not every thing that we do in peer support has to be under the umbrella of an employer. If you are a WRAP facilitator, for example, there are a lot of people in the community who have never heard of WRAP, and not everyone who is a peer is poor. There are a lot of people who would love to pay a nominal fee for an eight-week class that has the potential to give them a new lease on life. So, I always encourage people to think outside the box. And if there’s something that you want to do, and because I find sometimes people at their jobs say, I really want to do X, but I can’t do it at work. Well, okay. Well, if this is something that you can do on your own time, and perhaps get permission from your job to do this on a freelance basis, I encourage people to do that as well. I enjoy training, and I may have the opportunity to do a training that’s outside of the work that I do at my job. And if an opportunity like that came up, I’d like to pursue it and not feel that just because I work at a particular organization, that whatever I do is part of my job is really it.
DANIELLE DONALDSON: Yeah. And I thought I’d love to see personally, I’d just love to see some more entrepreneurs. I mean, I’d like to see people starting their own thing. If what you’re doing is not quite scratching that itch that you have, see if you can make it happen on your own. And I would love to see peer specialists doing it for themselves type of thing. Being in more control of their career from kind of start to finish. But that’s my own personal opinion.
CYNTHIA EVANS: Oh, and I agree with you 100 percent. I don’t like the idea of people sort of waiting for a job opportunity to open up in order for them to move into something that they want to do, because those opportunities are, especially again, given where we are with this pandemic, priorities can change.
DANIELLE DONALDSON: So, did you, do you have any final thoughts that you would like to share with the audience?
CYNTHIA EVANS: Just that, I, it’s really exciting to see the number of people that are hearing about the peer recovery specialist field and are wanting to use their experience strength and help to help others. And, and with regard to employment, I, I think it’s important even if you’re, if your primary job isn’t being an employment specialist, to learn what you can about effective ways of finding employment. Because sometimes if we give the wrong advice to people as they’re looking for work, it can be, and just as an example, I, I overheard a peer support specialist telling someone that it’s okay to use family members as references. And the job developer would be wanted to intervene and say, no, not a good idea. But I think, I think it’s helpful if we, if we learn a little bit about employment, a little bit about socialization, a little bit about health and physical wellness. And all these different things that go into helping people have healthier, richer lives.
DANIELLE DONALDSON: Well, thank you, Cynthia, for spending some time with us today. I really appreciate your sharing your expertise with us.
CYNTHIA EVANS: Well, thank you so much for having me. And thank you also for the awesome work that you do with Mental Health America of Virginia. You guys are awesome.
DANIELLE DONALDSON: Well, thank you. Thank you. Well, thanks for listening to the Peer Into Recovery podcast, brought to you today by the Virginia Peer Recovery Specialist Network and Mental Health America of Virginia. If you like our show and would like to subscribe, please visit our website at www.vprsn.org. And please leave us a review on itunes. Take good care of yourselves and we hope to talk to you soon.
