CHRIS NEWCOMB: Welcome to Peer Into Recovery, a podcast with the focus on the profession of peer support. For more information about how to subscribe, please visit our website at www.vprsn.org. Hey everybody, thanks for listening to this episode of Peer Into Recovery podcast, brought to you by the VPRSN Network and MHAV. We are excited to have listeners like you be a part of our Facebook group, the VPRSN group, if you’re not yet, please put a request in, we’d love to have you join the community.

Today, I have Carl Mack, who comes to us from the Virginia Health Department. He is located in Lynchburg, Virginia, and he’ll be telling you more about all the great work he’s doing there. He’s been there three years, and July 1st will be four. He is a registered PRS and a forensic PRS, the registered PRS in 2019, and then achieving the Forensic Peer Recovery Specialist designation in 2021. I’d like to just go ahead and get into it. Carl, thanks for being a part of this episode of Peer Into Recovery podcast.

CARL MACK: Thank you for having me.

CHRIS NEWCOMB: You’re welcome. We’re glad to have you. Let’s get into it. Tell me a little bit about, and our listeners, your story of origin, where you were born, and how you got to where you are on your journey of health and wellness, and then professionally as a CPRS, FPRS, PDQ, ABC.

CARL MACK: It’s a pretty detailed story. I originate from Baltimore County, Maryland. But my mother is a native of Lynchburg, and when she retired, she returned back to Lynchburg. And I was at the time of, since 2023, I was retired with disability from the Baltimore VA Medical Center. And, you know, I was working on the psychiatry unit there and dealing with the substance abused veterans or substance use disordered veterans. And so, you know, after that, I would come here every couple of weeks, help my mom out around the house. And then I just decided that I have helped my granddaughter through ages zero to five, and she’s now in elementary school, and I can leave. So I left Maryland. Baltimore is still just continuing to just be ridiculous, in my opinion.

CHRIS NEWCOMB: I know there had been a huge heroin problem there.

CARL MACK: Oh, yeah. At the time I was using opiates, it was during the open air markets that they had throughout the city. And you would see lines starting in an alley and coming out of the alley, wrapping around the block. And they were all waiting in line to purchase their opiates.

CHRIS NEWCOMB: Well, they had great customer service, right? Enough people to keep coming on there. Come on through, it won’t destroy your life. Come on.

CARL MACK: Oh, wow. It was horrible the way they treated some of them people.

CHRIS NEWCOMB: Oh, it’s awful. It’s awful. Sometimes you have to laugh or you’ll cry. So you’re in Baltimore, you decide, I’m out, and you come to Lynchburg?

CARL MACK: Yes, I had always come to Lynchburg as a child during the summers and spend time with my family that’s here. It was pretty familiar feel for me to come back. And welcome difference in the amount of activity. Yeah, even in Maryland, where I grew up, I grew up in Baltimore County, very close to the Carroll County line. And it was a small farm that we had, like we were back in the woods, almost a mile. I had my own car when I was eight years old, I could drive out to the bus stop to meet the bus.

CHRIS NEWCOMB: What?

CARL MACK: Yeah, it was crazy.

CHRIS NEWCOMB: The year of being eight for me was not as cool as it was for you. I did not have a car. And a little bit of jealousy overcomes me now.

CARL MACK: Believe me, they were old, beat up cars that dad would let me have. Like one of them was a Studebaker. Yes. And one of them was a Ford Torino that he cut the back half of it off so that he could haul wood out of the woods where we would cut the trees down and chop them up because we had a wood stove to heat the house.

CHRIS NEWCOMB: So you mentioned the Torino. My first car was a 1979 Ford Grand Torino station wagon. Fire engine red. It was a girlfriend repellent.

CARL MACK: I could imagine.

CHRIS NEWCOMB: I would drive down the street with my head as far down as I could, by the steering wheel, just enough to see so I didn’t wreck. because I drive by, I like the high school because I went to an all-guys school and the girls’ school was right down the street. You drive by and nobody’s looking at my car. When you get time from being a teenager, I’d rock that thing like it was nothing now. I’d be like, yeah, what’s up? Look at my car, I like this. This is styling. Baby, you need this. Know how we grow. You’re living on the farm. You got some cars at eight years old. Where does it go from there?

CARL MACK: I stayed there with, of course, my parents and that being my family’s land that was granted to them back in 1844 prior to the Civil War deciding what happens in slavery and everything. We moved further up into Baltimore County, closer towards the Pennsylvania line. I went to high school there and I had to deal with some of the intolerance. Because mind you, I was born in 66, two years before the assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King. In addition to that, going to high school and my elementary school, I was one of four to five black students and we have one black teacher. So when my parents split, we moved and I had to deal with the intolerance and being chased around with chains and called the N-word.

CHRIS NEWCOMB: Our life as human beings is mental health, and there’s a stigma around mental health. What’s interesting is like everybody has mental health. The question is what kind and how much? Where are we on the mental health spectrum? Are we in a healthy place or are we moving in the middle, like got some stuff, but I’m okay? Or are we on the other end where like, I need some help? So as a young black man, you’re experiencing beyond stupidity and intolerance of these folks, and you’re in high school. What’s that like for you from a mental health standpoint, if you think back to that?

CARL MACK: The population difference in Woodlawn was predominantly black. Having grew up in an area in Baltimore County, where my neighbors were a white family that owned horses, that they would be horses that would run at the Pimlico Race Station, and they would stable those horses. That was my best friend, and I would go over there and swim in their pool and ride the horses and all that sort of stuff to go into being mistreated by white people, and then coming to Woodlawn, where I was misunderstood there too, because I’m a black person and didn’t walk like them or talk like them or act like them.

CHRIS NEWCOMB: That’s a story for a lot of people, whether it’s race, gender, socioeconomic, whatever it is, is that idea of not fitting in. It’s a hard thing to do when you don’t fit in from some preconceived set up categorization. It can take a toll on mental health.

CARL MACK: It can. It really can. Yeah. I have to engage my coping skills to this day, when I start the negative self-talk.

CHRIS NEWCOMB: Let me ask you, you move closer to the Pennsylvania line, you go through these things, and then when you graduate high school, where do you go from there?

CARL MACK: When I graduate high school, it happens to be at another Baltimore County school called Randallstown High. I’ve started formulating some friendships because during the 7th grade was when I met my future wife and come to find out later on during the 12th grade, when she went to Randallstown, if I first went to Woodlawn, then my parents, my mother had gotten remarried and I wound up going to a Baltimore City School where again, it was even worse. This school at that time had a metal detector as you walk in the school.

CHRIS NEWCOMB: What year is this?

CARL MACK: So this is 84, maybe, 83, 84.

CHRIS NEWCOMB: Yeah.

CARL MACK: And, you know, it was a notoriously tough school. And so because my school history or learning was that you participate in class and you do your homework. But that was not well received by the other students.

CHRIS NEWCOMB: There you go trying to be somebody, Carl. Come on.

CARL MACK: I know.

CHRIS NEWCOMB: I’d actually like to learn. No, that’s not OK. We don’t do that here.

CARL MACK: Right. Right.

CHRIS NEWCOMB: Well, you know, there’s an old bumper sticker that says life is hard. It’s worse if you’re stupid. Yeah, which I think is a great sentiment. I mean, obviously, they’re making they’re poking fun, but, you know, kudos for you for doing your homework.

CARL MACK: Yeah. And so I moved from there because I just did not want to be in that environment and moved to live with my father, who had remarried. And he was in Baltimore County. I wound up going to Randallstown High School. And so that’s where my wife was, or future wife was also. Come to find out later in 12th grade that she had been using heroin intravenously since the 7th grade. And that was, you know, that was my first knowledge of anything to do with heroin. And I had signed up to go in the military in the 11th grade. So we had our plans. She also became pregnant in the 12th grade, but had a miscarriage. And so, you know, we were planning to just leave Maryland and start a new life, me being in the military. And my lack of experience with heroin was not helpful for the situation at all. She continued to have the cravings. From what I know now, that this is what was happening with her. She would deal with it. I watched her go through, you know, withdrawals and everything before we even left Maryland, because she was making a commitment to get into recovery and live us over a safe lifestyle. However, that changed when we were in El Paso, Texas, at Fort Bliss.

CHRIS NEWCOMB: So, you joined the military?

CARL MACK: Yes.

CHRIS NEWCOMB: What branch were you in?

CARL MACK: US. Army.

CHRIS NEWCOMB: US. Army. Thank you for your service.

CARL MACK: Thank you.

CHRIS NEWCOMB: We appreciate that. What did you do in the Army?

CARL MACK: So, my MOS was Operations Intelligence Assistant.

CHRIS NEWCOMB: It started back in the high school, using your intelligence. It was even the name of your job. Rock on, Carl.

CARL MACK: I often say that I think my steps were kind of ordered, because one of my first positions or duty assignments was to instruct newcomers to the post or base, as some people would know it, was to give them a class on the DUI policy within our battalion. And so that was like my first sort of foray into substance use disorders and some of the consequences that come from it.

CHRIS NEWCOMB: I went to military high school. Mindset is everything. And particularly in the work that our veterans do in our active duty, mindset is everything because fortunately, when you get into conflict, you have to have a certain mindset. Also, there are great numbers of active personnel and then veterans who have struggled with mental health issues from either seeing combat or being away from family, and then having some mental concerns that maybe they don’t know how to process or they’re not aware of what it is. So they go, oh, hey, I’m going to go to the local watering hole. Then suddenly, boom, they got alcoholism or, oh, this guy I know was on pills for his knee because he heard his ACL mess up, but he doesn’t really want anymore. I’ll take one and then all of a sudden, bam, this feels really good and before they know it, they’re hot needles. What would you say you saw or experienced there with mental health in the Army?

CARL MACK: I think personally, I was still going through the effects of, what I now know is adverse childhood experiences. I lost my finger around the age of one, while I was living out there on that little farm situation. My mother was working at a white coffee pot junior, which they no longer exist. And so she had a friendship with one of the neighbors that lived out at the end of the road, where the main road was, and he offered to give me guitar lessons. And I would go to the house, and then I don’t, you know, I’m not so sure that his mother was approving of that.

CHRIS NEWCOMB: Several guitars, 20 to be exact.

CARL MACK: Wow, yeah. And so one day they had their dog chained up to the side of the house, and I’m walking out for my lesson. And yes, the dog breaks the chain, comes across the street, and it takes a little chunk out of my arm. And, you know, I’m probably 10 or 11 at the time. And I watched her standing in the door and not saying or doing anything. And so I know that she didn’t approve of me being in her house.

CHRIS NEWCOMB: And so when your dog attacks another human being, and you don’t do anything, you’re probably not inviting that person over for dinner that night. And that’s putting it, that’s putting it lightly, but yeah, wow, wow. She didn’t get nice woman of the week on that one.

CARL MACK: Not at all. So I’ve never been back in that house since, but. And prior to that family moving in there, there was another white family who, their son was one of my good friends. And so it just was really strange how change was taking place. Then dealing with my wife who had an addiction, which I knew nothing about at the time. Only thing I was familiar with was alcohol and marijuana. And watching her go through those things, all of those things now I know were traumas to me. And yeah, and so, I just continued to move forward, you know. So dealing with that and then some of the things that happened in basic training, there was a young man who just for whatever reason, maybe he couldn’t tolerate the climate there. But one day he just started bleeding out of his nose and he started going a little crazy and, you know, it just was this big, dramatic scene there. And he wound up being medically discharged.

CHRIS NEWCOMB: He was like, I’m not shunning my shoes ever again. I can’t do this. Now, you want to talk about a trauma for that guy. And of course, everybody watching, of course, like you generally don’t just spot out at the nose. I mean, man, the adverse childhood experiences, trauma in the military service. Wow. Well, that can do a number on mental health.

CARL MACK: It really can. And then, you know, like the whole military atmosphere is, it can do things to people’s mental health because, you know, in the army, they’re known for hurry up and wait and being prepared and all of that. And so, you know, we would train hard, and then you would have all this downtime. You know, like you go to the field and you’d be out there for 90 days and maybe longer if you upset the colonel. And, you know, a lot of that is just downtime. It’s supposed to be practice. You’re sitting there with your weapon and, you know, you’ve dug your foxholes and all of that sort of thing. But then we’re in the desert and here comes scorpions and rattlesnakes and rugs in your tent at night because it rains in the desert. And it’s just a lot.

CHRIS NEWCOMB: That’s the test of living between your ears and the thoughts you choose and the thoughts that you don’t recognize that you may be choosing.

CARL MACK: Absolutely.

CHRIS NEWCOMB: If we don’t have self-awareness and, you know.

CARL MACK: That’s where I get this saying that I use with my participants in drug court a lot is that the most powerful conversation happening on the planet. It’s not in the Kremlin. It’s not in the palace. It’s not in Congress or the White house. It is in your head, in your mind, the things that you’re saying to yourself and the statements that you’re buying into. And so learning through my number of years with the Crisis Stabilization Unit and prior to that I worked at Shep Pratt. I worked on their co-occurring unit and then the VA hospital for 10 years and the psych unit time that I had there. So I learned that cognitive behavioral therapies were effective. And so I as a peer don’t get to teach necessarily all of that, but I do get to support them and ask, so how are you engaging it? It’s important to understand how our thoughts, they’re random, we have no control over them. It’s more about how we engage or respond to them. And sometimes people have not had these pro-social lives with structural supports that teach them healthy ways to cope with things and they, they respond in similar ways to their environmental stressors and how all of that affects their thinking. I’ve had probably a doctorate level education through lived experience with all of that. I just don’t have the degree.

CHRIS NEWCOMB: Lived experience is the work of a Peer Into Recovery Specialist, a registered PRS and an FPRS, that you have those destinations. And being able to bring that PhD of experience is huge because we know that there are folks who can read a book about it. And that has value. That has value because there are facts that exist outside of experience.

CARL MACK: That’s the best way to conceptualize what we do as peers because we take our lived experience and then we also take the things that were the lessons from that experience and see how it correlates with the person being served and help them to through motivational interviewing, help them to see what the discrepancy is between what they say they want and what they’re actually doing and how both of them affect their outcomes.

CHRIS NEWCOMB: Yeah, you mentioned motivational interviewing. And for those who are listening and aren’t familiar with it, it’s a psychology framework to meet people where they are as far as potential life change. And while we aren’t clinicians and all that sort of thing, at the end of the day, a conversation is still a conversation. At the end of the day, when we support peers, we don’t, I’ve always said, people don’t wake up on a Tuesday and say, yes, this is awesome. Today’s Tuesday, I’m going to destroy my life. I’m so excited and I’m going to do it by noon. I’m going to do all these substances by noon. And then after that, I’m going to have a mental breakdown. And then after that, I’m going to do like, no.

And that’s not to judge anybody that’s had those experiences. It’s just trying to have a ha ha sort of way of saying, we generally don’t choose to destroy ourselves, right? So there’s a motivation or the consideration of motivation for those that we serve. Something’s not where I want it to be in my life. I want it to change to a place where I feel more comfortable, whatever that is. And so the work of a peer, while not distinctly motivational interviewing, the concept and the heart of that is what we do when you have conversations. So when you have conversations about mental health and the health work that you do, tell us a little bit about that in the Lynchburg office at the Virginia Health Department. Your designation as a health counselor to and peer recovery specialist.

CARL MACK: So, my approach is to get to know the person. Like many times when they first come into Drug Court and I’m sitting over with the treatment team in the court and I look at this participant that’s being inducted into the program and I hear some of their story and where they are in life and I think to myself, Lord, how am I going to connect with this person? Sometimes some of my negative self-talk comes into play and I have to overcome all those things and just do the work. Then it unfolds through the use of motivational interviewing. It’s interesting that you said we’re not clinicians, we’re not therapists, but the work that we do is an extension of the clinical work and the therapy that they receive. It’s helpful if we are able to connect with the other treatment providers and understand where that peer is.

CHRIS NEWCOMB: Sure, and to go back to the military example, you have somebody who’s doing communications, you have somebody that’s doing triage for medical stuff, you’ve got somebody who’s doing munitions, you’ve got leaders who are leading groups of soldiers here and there or whatever, and that’s the strength of a team. So the clinician says, hey, I think you’re probably struggling with this, but I also want you to talk to the peer right down the hall, because they have a perspective that’s going to be really helpful because they’ve walked a mile and she’s similar to yours.

CARL MACK: Right, and we get to draw on our experiences and we probably can relate to theirs when we understand that environment plays a lot in that. So some of the environmental messaging that this person may be receiving is that asking for help is a sign of weakness.

CHRIS NEWCOMB: Yes.

CARL MACK: And I explained to them that, you know, It is completely weak.

CHRIS NEWCOMB: No, I’m kidding. I’m totally kidding listeners. I’m totally kidding. Ask for help.

CARL MACK: Yes.

CHRIS NEWCOMB: For help. From that weakness, you will have strength.

CARL MACK: Yeah, and so that’s one of the key or one of the five rules of recovery. I’ll mention that and get back to it really quickly. But so I was saying to you that when I understand that this person may be resistant or standoffish and we engage in a conversation about what is weakness and what is not, I often share with them that sometimes when I go into the VA hospital, I see signs that say it takes the strength of a warrior to ask for help, and how that is effective in a battle situation. You know, you may be downrange and engaging with the enemy, and you may find out that they’re encroaching on you and your position. It is recommended that you reach out, use your radio, call in some help and have the Air Force come and drop a couple bombs.

CHRIS NEWCOMB: And it’s like saying it’s best practice to get help when bullets are flying nearby. True indeed. But I always say even in the midst of darkness and mistreatment and the hurt and pain that we cause, a lot of people cause others, good marches on.

CARL MACK: And so we find ways to support that because there’s good in all of us. We can find the good and then try to expand from there. So I know I mentioned to you the 5 Rules of Recovery.

CHRIS NEWCOMB: Yes, I love to hear that.

CARL MACK: When a person comes into the Lynchburg Adult Drug Court, our judge has made it almost a requirement. He strongly, strongly urges them to connect with peer support. And the first thing that we do on our first meeting is I get to hear a little about where they are and I can tell them some of my story. I don’t want to just regurgitate it all on them at once. And they during their, as they’re doing their intake paperwork. But our second meeting is the five rules of recovery, which they go like this. The first rule is to create a new life. You have to decide that you’re going to take your power back and put in place those things that make you happy. You know, forward all of your goals that you have for yourself. And then the second rule is to be completely honest. And even the judge asked the participants when they’re inducted, he says, I asked for two things. I asked that you be honest and that you try hard. And so these five rules of recovery, I felt like they’re right in line with that.

So first is to create your new life. Second is to be completely honest. Number three is to ask for help. There it is again, right? And then this one is huge. Number four is practice self-care. So again, we don’t actually have, well, I can’t say we don’t, but many times, this is something I learned from a judge in the National Association of Drug Court Professionals Training. And I believe she’s a judge there in Richmond. She said, and I still repeat this many times. She says, many times, we need to be habilitated and not rehabilitated. We haven’t had all of these pro-social events and historical experiences that we can draw from, and we may not have the pro-social supports. And so we don’t know what that looks like.

CHRIS NEWCOMB: Yes.

CARL MACK: Yeah. And we see it happening with others, but this is my life story. This is how I survive. And that’s usually what they wind up doing is surviving from week to week, day to day, hour by hour, minute by minute. And that’s what forces some bad choices.

CHRIS NEWCOMB: Adversity introduces us to ourselves. It’s exactly what you just said. Things happen right or wrong, good or bad, fair or not. We have to decide when those things happen, what is the inside of us? How are we going to react to that message? And what are we going to do with it?

CARL MACK: Like, yes, here’s where we show up.

CHRIS NEWCOMB: Here’s where we show up. Yeah. Bcause, because let’s be honest, there are a lot of legitimate reasons not to take the high road in life. When you’ve had things happen to you, traumas that have happened and mistreatment and things didn’t go our way. There’s lots of reasons. It’s called resentment is one of them. Lack of forgiveness is another and I’m not saying either of these are even. Guilt, shame. Yeah. None of that stuff is easy to deal with. But at the end of the day, the onus is on us as an individual to make choices for our lives and that’s not to discount the feelings, the emotions, the feelings, the thoughts, the experiences that peers have when they come to us. Those are all 110% valid. Always have, always will be. And when working with Drug Court, I mean, you’re working with a population of folks who have made choices or a choice that are looking at some legal consequences if they don’t make some radical choices to go in a different way.

CARL MACK: Yes.

CHRIS NEWCOMB: But those rules of recovery basically say, look, adversity is introducing to yourself right now. Now you have a choice. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. But number five is if you break one through four, it’s not going to go well for you.

CARL MACK: I also tell them, once you learn these five rules, everything that happens from here on out, you can put somewhere under one of the five rules. Yes. Yeah. I encourage them to memorize the five rules of recovery. It’s important. And then we do some more supporting them around where they are through phase one. And then in phase two, we will do relapse prevention and the five rules of recovery that explains how a relapse happens in stages. There’s the emotional, the mental, and then the physical. And in your emotional phase, you’re not even thinking about using, but your behaviors and your thought patterns and your coping or poor coping is setting you up for a relapse down the road. Just like when I decided to leave the environment that I was in in Baltimore, in Baltimore County, and come here to Lynchburg, things changed because of that choice.

CHRIS NEWCOMB: So when you mentioned the five rules of recovery, are those five rules that you made up that you got somewhere?

CARL MACK: I got them off line. So I am aware that there is a recovery hospital in North Carolina that uses the same five rules of recovery and it is a J.Co approved. So it’s evidence-based.

CHRIS NEWCOMB: Okay. It’s a J.Co approved model.

CHRIS NEWCOMB: Now what is, pardon the ignorance, what is J.Co?

CARL MACK: J.Co is Joint Commission for the Accreditation of Hospital Organizations.

CHRIS NEWCOMB: Mouthful. Exactly. So it’s legit is another way to say that to our listeners.

CARL MACK: Yes, the VA used to use J.Co.

CHRIS NEWCOMB: Then very legit.

CARL MACK: Rule number 4, practice self-care because you don’t understand how important it is to your well-being mentally and physically and emotionally until you learn what it can do for you.

CHRIS NEWCOMB: When you see the lights go on in someone’s eyes, that life can change.

CARL MACK: Yes. Addiction is hard, recovery is hard, choose your heart.

CHRIS NEWCOMB: There you go. Exactly. Yeah. Choose what you want to do because it’s going to be hard either way, and it’s going to be a problem.

CARL MACK: But you have the skill sets, you are applying them. Let’s examine the big picture here and help you to understand what you say you want and what you’re really doing. You get all these outside influences and things like that, but what are you inside and engaging or connecting with? Again, we need to have continued engagement past the five phases of drug court. because there’s an active and thriving addiction community, but we need to support this recovery community in doing things that will help keep a person attracted to as opposed to force to engage in recovery.

CHRIS NEWCOMB: In closing, let me ask you, what is the best part of your job working in drug court in Lynchburg, in the Virginia Health Department as a health counselor and a peer recovery specialist? What’s the best part of that?

CARL MACK: The best part to me is that being that I’m in a health department, I’m encouraged to use a public health viewpoint on what’s happening. because I work for two drug courts, one is an adult criminal drug court and the other one is a family treatment docket, which is civil. I get to try to figure out from a higher level what the different things are that’s needed in our area to support the participants in drug court to have success in their journey. You’d be surprised how in a civil court or family treatment docket, the goal there being reunification with a child that’s been removed from the home because of substance involvement. Sometimes that’s not enough of a draw. That’s not enough of an encouragement for a person to get into and sustain their recovery. It’s not always, but it is a thing. Understanding these things from the higher level and then trying to advocate for supports for the people who are struggling in those areas and then to be able to sustain that improvement that they get because Drug Court is an effective intervention.

CHRIS NEWCOMB: So it sounds like what’s really rewarding in your job is that you get the 30,000 foot view and then you get down on the ground in the trenches with folks from start to finish.

CARL MACK: Indeed, indeed. And so you get it. You get the picture I’m trying to describe for you.

CHRIS NEWCOMB: Yeah.

CARL MACK: And the work is, it doesn’t even really seem like work because of the passion that I have for the work. And I really enjoy being able to help to bring about that internal shift that we were discussing and help that person to decide that they want that shift and that they want to continue to sustain it.

CHRIS NEWCOMB: And that is, that’s the game changer. Carl, thanks so much for being on the program today, the Peer In Recovery podcast. It’s been great having this conversation. You’ve had such a wide breadth and depth of life experience and then experience that has brought you through so many different places in recovery, from a professional standpoint, and the good work that you’re doing there in Lynchburg at the Virginia Health Department as a Health Counselor to PRS. So thank you for being a part of this. And I know that what you’ve shared will be of a benefit to those who listen.

CARL MACK: That’s the best outcome. So that my story gets to help somebody else and even just encourage them. Thank you so much for having me.

CHRIS NEWCOMB: I want to thank our listeners for listening to the Peer Into Recovery podcast, which is brought to you by the Virginia Peer Specialist Network and Mental Health America of Virginia. And if you like our show and would like to subscribe to the podcast, please visit our website at www.vprsn.org. And please leave us a brief review on iTunes. In the meantime, please take care of yourselves, everyone. We’ll see you soon.