DANIELLE DONALDSON: Welcome to Peer Into Recovery, a podcast with a focus on the profession of peer support. For more information about how to subscribe, please visit our website at www.vprsn.org. Welcome everyone, and thank you for joining us at Peer Into Recovery. I am your host, Danielle Donaldson. In this episode, I’m going to be speaking with Cheryl DeHaven of Wonderous Ways Coaching & Training. We’ll be talking about the recent announcement that the Virginia Department of Behavioral Health and Developmental Services has plans to close the Office of Recovery Services. Hi Cheryl, thank you for joining me today. I’m sorry it’s under these particular conditions, but thank you for being here.

CHERYL DEHAVEN: Thank you, Danielle. It’s a privilege to be here and raise awareness on trying to understand what’s happening. Yeah, so thank you.

DANIELLE DONALDSON: Yeah, exactly. So for those who don’t know who you are, which I’d be surprised if you’re a Virginia Peer and you don’t know who Cheryl DeHaven is, but for those who don’t know who you are, do you mind just giving a brief introduction and why this particular issue is so important to you?

CHERYL DEHAVEN: Absolutely. I have a lifetime of lived experience, both mental health and substance use and from the individual and family perspective, and I’ve been working in the peer support field since 2004 in various levels. A huge part of that has been advocating to enhance and build and develop peer formalization of peer services, making sure that we’re getting resources out to the people who need to know about resources for recovery. Then in part of that history of advocacy, and I’ve been a part of that too, is the establishment of the Department of Behavioral Health and Developmental Services Office of Recovery Services. And so I’m glad to be here to talk about that today because we’re very alarmed. I’m alarmed and concerned about those changes and I want to know what we can do.

DANIELLE DONALDSON: Yeah. And so for those that are kind of new to the field here in Virginia, the Office of Recovery Services is kind of new too. Like, it’s only been around for what, 10 years? Well, maybe not even 10 years.

CHERYL DEHAVEN: 2015.

DANIELLE DONALDSON: Okay. So 2015. Right. So those of us who know the before times when there was an Office of Recovery Services, you know, this was kind of a new development, an exciting development for those of us that were in the profession. So what exactly does the Office of Recovery Services do? And why is it so important?

CHERYL DEHAVEN: Yeah, that’s a great question. So when it was originally established, one of the primary purposes was to establish the training and certification and formalization of the peer profession in Virginia and to bring advocates and people to the table to advise that process. And we had Becky Sterling was our first Office of Recovery Services Director. Interestingly, she reported directly to the Commissioner in her role as the Office of Recovery Services Director. And so that was, you know, the peer community was ecstatic that this might happen.

DANIELLE DONALDSON: A direct line to the Commissioner.

CHERYL DEHAVEN: Yeah. And DBHDS had, you know, had brought together a bunch of advocates from around the state, peers and supporters from around the state, to say that we needed this. And then finally, years later, it takes about 10 years to make a change happen.

DANIELLE DONALDSON: Right.

CHERYL DEHAVEN: So, we probably started in 05 at least in having those conversations. And then finally, 2015, we got the office. And so, primarily, standing up peer support training and building the curriculum and certification pathways and that part of it. But also, they took on overseeing the grant funding that was delineating, you know, coming from the federal and the state governments. And started overseeing the block grant money that was designated to peer organizations. Mental Health Virginia, all the different organizations that were receiving money, they were then tasked with overseeing that. And so, that was great because it was them, the people with the lived experience. So, the Office of Recovery Services is staffed by people in recovery themselves with lived experience of mental health or substance use. And so, that was, that was, that’s a big deal, right? Just to have an office only operating with peer support, lived experience guiding that process. But so, we were overseeing the grants and making sure that the communities that were utilizing the monies, that it was helping, you know, continuum of care that’s out here and resources to support people in recovery, not just within formalized systems, but in recovery community organizations and peer run organizations and things like that, that are outside of the formal system of care because that’s a huge need. A lot of people struggle with trusting the system of care or have been forced into, you know, treatment or held in ways that, you know, traumatize them.

DANIELLE DONALDSON: Yeah.

CHERYL DEHAVEN: So, that was really key. Two of the key main functions of the office. Now, it has expanded way beyond that. You know, we went from one position to 11 with that. They and, but some of those positions were grant funded. And so they, you know, with the funding changes at the federal government, some of those positions ended sooner than expected. So, but, you know, now we have, we have the gambling director for gambling addressing that. We had some regional coordinators, but there’s still that level of overseeing the grant funding and making sure that those deliverables that are being funded to the recovery community are, or CSBs, anybody, that that money is doing what it’s intended to do and meeting the needs.

DANIELLE DONALDSON: Yeah, so I guess you can kind of extrapolate from there perhaps, you know, what the closure of this office might mean. What kind of consequences do you think might happen if they actually go through with this closure?

CHERYL DEHAVEN: Yeah, so what they are looking at, what we were told in the informational session with Sarah, there is a video that goes along with that. People can listen for themselves. But the structure, then, it shows the recovery services going under the Substance Use Division and then under the Mental Health Department, and alongside of prevention and treatment, right? So you have prevention, treatment, and recovery, but it’s separated under mental health and substance use. And so, my interpretation of that is that’s very 20 years ago model. That’s, you know, we overlap so much, and we have a unified voice and mission and purpose and all of that. We’ve done some pretty incredible work in Virginia to build out, you know, just having the Department of Behavioral Health with everything under one agency is different than some states.

DANIELLE DONALDSON: Well, I was going to agree.

CHERYL DEHAVEN: Let’s still divide it between mental health and substance use, right? So, we’re already ahead, but to have the Office of Recovery Services and that unification, you know, has, there’s so much that can come from that unique voice. And because we set up our trainings to be unified for peer recovery specialists and family support partners, parent support partners, you know, all together, it’s better to come with that unified voice across all systems. Because what’s happening, and I hear it all the time, is nobody knows what the other, what there’s supposed to be doing, right? To get these services out in the way that they’re meant to get be delivered. And so there’s a lot of confusion or different things. And I’m afraid that if they’re dividing us out, we lose that very important component of the collective voice.

DANIELLE DONALDSON: Well, I was going to say, it really does feel like we’re being siloed again.

CHERYL DEHAVEN: Yes.

DANIELLE DONALDSON: You know, and that we’re all going to be, again, in our different agencies or in our different departments, separated from other peers that are doing similar work. And it’s just going to be that much harder for us to connect with each other. And I agree. I do think that the mental health side and the substance use side have probably more in common than they do separately. So, you know, we only, you know, improve each other’s work by sharing ideas and plans and all of that sort of thing. So, you know, from what I understand, you know, the Office of Recovery Services works for the peer workforce, you know, and ultimately, you know, hopefully that benefits peers themselves.

CHERYL DEHAVEN: But, I think it’s both, and Danielle, but I’m not sure.

DANIELLE DONALDSON: That’s true. That’s true. I mean, I guess it’s just, you know, so much of it’s at least on the part of the working peer. You know, we expect that most of our kind of directives for what we do as our job is going to come from the Office of Recovery Services and it’s not there any longer. You know, where do we find our direction? So, I mean, you know, again, I guess that is maybe a misperception on my part. You know, is the Office of Recovery Services working for all peers regardless of whether or not they’re actually employed as peer supporters or what’s your thoughts on that?

CHERYL DEHAVEN: Yeah, like the voice of the people who are actually getting services in some way directly. I do think so because, you know, everything about the services that are being implemented for recovery, that money that’s earmarked for recovery services, whether it’s mental health or substance use, is meant to go out into the community to meet the needs of the individual. So the individual voice needs to be represented. And many people, because they do have lived experience at that office, have, they are, we are the people on the ground, you know, or they have that connection, that collaboration to hear those voices in some way. You know, I haven’t really been following all the things that the Office of Recovery Services has been doing lately and what that all can look like. But I do think there’s an opportunity with this concern that we look at maintaining the Office of Recovery Services or reestablishing it if these changes continue to go forward. Right? And what can we do to get that back? And then what can we do to ensure that the office is representative of, you know, what is it responsible for? And is that clear? And are we seeing performance outcomes as a result of that? I was looking at the Peer Support Act with, that was put forth in Congress by Senator Tim Kaine.

DANIELLE DONALDSON: Yeah, our senator.

CHERYL DEHAVEN: Our senator is saying in this Congressional bill that there needs to be, in code, federal code, maintain the establishment of the Office of Recovery Services at the SAMHSA level. And in that, they are required, they would be responsible for A, B, C, D, E, and E. And I think that’s what we need in Virginia is to model that. But I’m not sure that the task of the Office of Recovery Services at the federal level, how that would then look at the state level. But it should be mirroring, to me, in my opinion, it should be mirroring that model. And they do not follow under substance use or mental health. They are their own stand-alone office. And I looked at some of their performance report from last year, and it’s quite impressive to see what they do and how they carry out their duties. And I was looking for some things to understand more about what the DBHDS Office of Recovery Services, what duties they’re carrying out, what outcomes have they been showing over these years? Is there something there that we, if we promote to get that office back or, you know, pause that, is it serving Virginians in the way that we need it to?

DANIELLE DONALDSON: So I know the news of this broke what, like last week or I don’t know. Time seems to have no meaning anymore. But so I know that there’s been a lot of efforts to advocate against this closing. What have you seen out there so far? I know that you’ve done a lot yourself. So do you want to kind of share some of the things that people have been doing or that you’ve been seeing other people?

CHERYL DEHAVEN: So I first got wind of this on social media, on Facebook. I believe there were a couple of posts calling out to Virginians to know that this is happening. That certainly was not planned to get the word out there by DBHDS. They made those decisions and we were alerted. Unofficially, right? And now when they were concerned about that, it was like, oh, the word is getting out. But to me, that’s nothing about us without us issue.

DANIELLE DONALDSON: Right, right.

CHERYL DEHAVEN: So one of my takeaways from this in hearing that, that so I’ve heard and I don’t know how true, right, hearsay is that the Office of Recovery Services was not included in the decisions and it was shocking to them, right? And so I hope they would alert us, somebody. So whatever, it’s nothing about us without us. And my take on this is, is that if at the highest levels in government and oversight of services for individuals with lived experience and needing treatment, recovery, prevention, whatever that is, if this, if the powers that be do not understand the importance of nothing about us without us and, and including us in those high level decisions, how in the world can we under, expect them to understand how to do that on a personal level in the system of care?

DANIELLE DONALDSON: Yeah.

CHERYL DEHAVEN: The people that they’re licensing, licensing and giving money and funding to, if they don’t do this at the top, how, or, you know, they respect the individual voice at the system, you know, one on one systems level.

DANIELLE DONALDSON: No, I agree. Right, right. No, and I agree that does seem like they really fundamentally do not understand that core principle of peer support.

CHERYL DEHAVEN: And that goes with, it’s against the principles of trauma-informed care or trauma-informed approaches or trauma aware, because trauma informs, this goes against all of that. You know, people are getting nervous, they’re fearful, they don’t know what’s happening, right? So safety, safety, trust and transparency, you know, voice and choice. I tell you what, Danielle, I recognize in my journey, as long as I’ve been on it, when things tap into my own personal trauma, and this does, these changes behind closed doors that weren’t, you know, yeah, that got out is exactly tapping into my trauma. So yes, I’m angry, I’m upset. It might be a little bit much, but it is. It reminds me of when I lost my own voice and choice, when it came to services and not being heard and validated, when things didn’t work and you make complaints and they still don’t trust what you’re saying or anything.

DANIELLE DONALDSON: Right, they just don’t hear you.

CHERYL DEHAVEN: So yeah, what is happening right now by not keeping people informed and following Nothing About Us Without Us and trauma-informed principles? It puts us back into this place of like, what are we doing?

DANIELLE DONALDSON: It does feel like we’ve taken a 10-year step back.

CHERYL DEHAVEN: And what are the measuring sticks? I’m thinking, can we just use those six principles as a measuring stick for everything you do at DBHDS? And then you can collect other data. But is this promoting safety, voice, and choice? Because if it’s not, you’re re-traumatizing people who are already traumatized and trying to heal.

DANIELLE DONALDSON: Exactly. Exactly.

CHERYL DEHAVEN: Emotional intelligence tells me to find a way to get my voice heard. And what is the problem? And how can we step up? So that’s what I’m trying to figure out. I put out, I did some research on my own. I put up based on my understanding of what was happening and the communications that went out. I put together a petition and we have over 200 signatures on that.

DANIELLE DONALDSON: Great.

CHERYL DEHAVEN: Including somebody from Pat Deegan’s shop.

DANIELLE DONALDSON: Oh.

CHERYL DEHAVEN: I know. They have attention on this now too.

DANIELLE DONALDSON: I was going to ask you how has the, I know that you’ve been online trying to advocate for this. So I was wondering how has the peer community responded to you? What kind of support have you seen? What kind of resistance have you seen? What’s going on out there?

CHERYL DEHAVEN: I was confused because Mental Health Virginia and VOCAL and Sarah weren’t really taking a stand. But then I was like, oh, they get funding so there’s a fine line there. And peer support specialists working in the system of care or getting grant funding for their organizations. People don’t know what they can and cannot do. So, a lot of the, there’s a lot of, you know, uncertainty in that regard. So I think that’s one of the problems that needs to be addressed is how do we equip peer recovery specialists with the resources and tools and strategies to advocate when the advocacy organizations that we typically think of to put bills forth in the legislation and things like that is kind of quiet and, you know, providing space and information but not really able to take a stand. So then how do we leverage our voice? How do we get together? So, I just tapped into the Virginia Peer Recovery Specialist Network Facebook page because we’ve got what, fifteen, sixteen hundred people in that group.

DANIELLE DONALDSON: In that group, yeah.

CHERYL DEHAVEN: Yeah, so let’s have conversations there because it certainly is impacting us and people don’t know what they can or cannot do.

DANIELLE DONALDSON: Well, and I have to wonder how much of our, unfortunately, the national struggles, our national struggles with misinformation and what’s true and what isn’t, and again, also how many people are being shut down, including our national media. So, Virginia obviously is part of the United States, and I feel like some of that is affecting us as a state as well. Like, it is scary to speak out nowadays because you don’t know, you know, what’s going to come back and bite you.

CHERYL DEHAVEN: Yes, right, right.

DANIELLE DONALDSON: Or what kind of, yeah, retaliation is out there. So I think maybe, maybe that might be a little bit part of it too, is that people are just afraid right now.

CHERYL DEHAVEN: I spoke to one of my colleagues who was in a high leadership position within the system of care, and they’re very, and I said, hey, I just want you to be aware of this, and I know you have peers and things like that, so how can we leverage agencies to help or know about this or anything like that? And so what they were able to do was carry the information about the closing and the changes in the video and the, what is it, the one we’re all signing.

DANIELLE DONALDSON: The petition?

CHERYL DEHAVEN: Yeah, the petition. So just bring in awareness to leadership teams, the higher levels to know that this is happening and that the peer teams and people may be feeling, can we do what, how do they, how can they, the leadership team, support their peer teams as this is going on within the system of care? And so they were willing to carry the information to all the types of meetings that they participate in, including meetings with legislators to raise awareness that this is happening and there’s a movement with somebody. And, you know, we want our voices to be heard. I think we have to be very grass roots right now because we don’t know what to do specifically, besides writing the letters to the governors. So Action Network, there’s a link for that too. And there’s already pre-written communication and you can just push the button, put your name on it. It goes to the governor, it goes to the commissioner, it goes to the Board of Directors at DBHDS. Some of us are going to DBHDS Board of Directors in their next meeting and seeking to make public comment to address our concerns and get our voices heard and try to, you know, we’re in it for the long haul, just like Medicaid rates, you know, that wasn’t good to get off the, you know, we had to advocate for that change for several different ways with peer organizations and from different angles. And so I think we might be in it for the long haul with this too. And I think people need to be prepared for that.

DANIELLE DONALDSON: Well, and what about reaching out to, I mean, not just the legislature, the upper legislators that you mentioned, but your local legislators? Like, is there, is there anybody, has there been any Virginia state legislators that are responding to this yet? Have you heard from any or do you know of any? I mean, I personally haven’t. I haven’t heard any of them say anything yet. So that’s why I was asking.

CHERYL DEHAVEN: I sent a bunch of letters to not to love my local legislator, but like to the governor’s office and say, I haven’t heard a thing. Right, right. Yeah, it’s been quiet. So I think what I’m asking peers who want to be part of taking some action is if they have a way to share what they’re doing on the Virginia PRS Network page, just so that we have a centralized place.

DANIELLE DONALDSON: Right. Well, I do think that that’s a disadvantage maybe that we have here in Virginia is that we don’t have a peer organization. We don’t have, I mean, we do have VOCAL, which is a peer organization, but I mean, I guess for peer specialists.

CHERYL DEHAVEN: A peer provider network.

DANIELLE DONALDSON: Right. Exactly. Someone, the working peer who is a peer supporter.

CHERYL DEHAVEN: But we do have a voice under the VA CSB now. There is a peer provider.

DANIELLE DONALDSON: But what about all of us who don’t work for CSBs?

CHERYL DEHAVEN: I know. I know. So there’s that. But then how much do they influence? Right. Can they advocate?

DANIELLE DONALDSON: Oh, yeah. I mean, the more that we need all. Yeah.

CHERYL DEHAVEN: Can they advocate for us?

DANIELLE DONALDSON: But again, it does feel like, again, silos. Like, okay, well, the VA CSB has a peer representative. But again, in theory, they’re only working for the CSB peers. Anyway, it’s just something that I think that is catching us in a bind a little bit.

CHERYL DEHAVEN: You know, I know a lot of people, I’ve talked to a lot of people in the last week, and people are not happy. But I think a lot of people aren’t able to speak out because of their role.

DANIELLE DONALDSON: Right. Right. Exactly. Well, and that’s the other thing. Like, I think a lot of us want to know why. Why is this happening? What is the reasoning behind this decision? Again, do any of us know? Because I’ve been in a meeting about this, and again, even the Office of Recovery Services doesn’t seem to know why this is happening. I think that’s probably another real source of frustration. Not only did we find out about it after the fact, what’s the justification for this?

CHERYL DEHAVEN: Right. The fact that they don’t have a solid plan on how to carry forth those duties, to do this, it makes us even more distrustful.

DANIELLE DONALDSON: Well, it does. It calls into a lot of questions about how does our certification process going to play out now that all of our ORS employees are scattered to different departments. I’d like to know, how is all of the logistics? Because I work a lot in logistics. Believe it or not, this is the work I do. How do you make things like that happen smoothly when the people are no longer housed together in the same office?

CHERYL DEHAVEN: Yeah. It makes it very complicated.

DANIELLE DONALDSON: What can people do to advocate, to either keep this office open, or postpone the dissolution of this office, or what kind of things have you seen out there? What kind of things are you trying to get started?

CHERYL DEHAVEN: Well, I know with the, there is the Peer Support Stakeholder Group. That meets, so I know they’re talking about it.

DANIELLE DONALDSON: That meets monthly, right?

CHERYL DEHAVEN: There’s the Behavioral Health Advisory Council. I don’t know where that might come up in this, as well. Is that a pathway for us to ask questions? We’re going to talk to the, you know, board of directors. You can write. But I think as an individual, if you’re working within the system of care in some way, is to talk with your employer and make sure you’re clear about what your limits are. But, you know, most of us are, I mean, we’re all a citizen of this, you know, state as well, the Commonwealth. And so, you know, how do we balance? How can we, you know, voice our frustration or our concerns or our ideas when we may not be able to because of the role? What is the line? We need to know what that line is. And then we need to, you know, that way I think people will feel more comfortable doing things like publicly signing a petition or sending, you know, contacting their legislators and things like that. But I think we just have to be the squeaky wheel. At every angle, we can possibly do this to continue to bombard them with questions. Why is this happening?

DANIELLE DONALDSON: Do you know, has there been any type of state media that’s addressed to this?

CHERYL DEHAVEN: Rumblings, there’s rumblings.

DANIELLE DONALDSON: I haven’t seen anything. I mean, I’m just curious, like, you know, what hasn’t made the news yet?

CHERYL DEHAVEN: Yeah, what hasn’t made the news yet? That’s a good question. I want to know too. And, you know, there’s some speculation that there might be some key players that are directing this who are not really into, you know, the idea of peer support. And is that influencing from internally? I, that’s all hearsay. I have no idea.

DANIELLE DONALDSON: Well, again, I think that’s what’s so frustrating about it, this is there’s so, some, we don’t know information.

CHERYL DEHAVEN: So somebody tells us truth because we know when we’re being told truths or not. And it doesn’t feel like it doesn’t feel like we’re being told the truth yet.

DANIELLE DONALDSON: Right.

CHERYL DEHAVEN: Yeah, no, it feels like there’s something else going on. And that’s not fair to make a decision if it is something else underlying it. Right now, we just have to believe what they tell us. You know, we can FOIA. I mean, there’s information that’s FOIAable, Freedom of Information Act. So, you know, we’ve only, we’re only like, what, a week or so into this.

DANIELLE DONALDSON: Right, right.

CHERYL DEHAVEN: I think we’ve made some pretty good strides. But we know we’re just going to keep going. And I’m just encouraging, I can’t take the lead because I’m busy working. You know, I will definitely contribute. As much as possible.

DANIELLE DONALDSON: Right. Well, and I think, you know, we could benefit from some sort of centralized advocacy. But I guess worst case scenario, even if all these little disparate groups are trying to raise their voice at least hopefully maybe together, it’ll sound like a big group. But so people find information about how to advocate, how to sign the petition, where to find information about this. Like I said, I know it’s pretty new and I haven’t seen anything in the news. I haven’t seen anything in the newspapers or TV yet.

CHERYL DEHAVEN: So anybody has contacts with the media, you know, that’s another pathway for sure. And I haven’t done any outreach directly myself to the media.

DANIELLE DONALDSON: Well, because I’m sure there’s a lot of people, like for example, I know my own family and friends have no clue that any of this is happening. It’s not in their, you know, it doesn’t affect them, you know, on a daily basis. So, you know, in a lot of situations, if it doesn’t make the state news or right, these people will never know about it. And maybe it is important to them. They just, you know, don’t happen to be working peer specialists. So, yeah, it’s very concerning. But again, maybe I’m just anxious and it’s only been a week.

CHERYL DEHAVEN: So, we are also anxious people. I mean, now I appreciate like vocal setting up the meeting Thursday just for people to come together and be able to vent.

DANIELLE DONALDSON: Now, do you know, is that available publicly or was that just a kind of?

CHERYL DEHAVEN: I mean, I think I’ve seen it posted multiple places. But again, it’s within-

DANIELLE DONALDSON: I guess I meant, was it recorded and shared publicly or no?

CHERYL DEHAVEN: Oh, that meeting isn’t until Thursday. This coming tomorrow.

DANIELLE DONALDSON: Okay. Okay. So, VOCAL is having a meeting tomorrow.

CHERYL DEHAVEN: Just to listen, to let people connect.

DANIELLE DONALDSON: Right. Right. So, that’s available tomorrow. Hopefully, I’ll get this out tomorrow. I’m not sure. I’m not sure I can get it out in time.

CHERYL DEHAVEN: They’ll probably continue to hold space. I think if the peer organization, the peers, we can get the word out to people that we know. Right.

DANIELLE DONALDSON: So, tell your coworkers, tell your colleagues.

CHERYL DEHAVEN: Yes. I mean, I’ve had family members signing the petition. I have colleagues who are not abreast of all of this, signing the, you know, and the more they make, well, people have been making donations on that petition. And when they make donations on the petition, it actually lets the petition go out more broadly, change.org. So, they send it out to others who might be interested in chiming in too. But now, we also, you know, is, I put it on LinkedIn.

DANIELLE DONALDSON: Okay, so I was going to ask you, where can they find the petition to sign?

CHERYL DEHAVEN: On the Virginia PRS Network Facebook page.

DANIELLE DONALDSON: Okay, so on the VPRSN Facebook page.

CHERYL DEHAVEN: And follow me on LinkedIn.

DANIELLE DONALDSON: Okay, and follow Cheryl DeHaven on LinkedIn.

CHERYL DEHAVEN: I’m not trying to make this about me. I’m just trying to get it out there, you know.

DANIELLE DONALDSON: Well, again, because like I said, it’s, you know, there isn’t one place we can send people to. So that makes it a bit of a challenge.

CHERYL DEHAVEN: But, you know, if the VPRSN was established as a network, you know, as a professional network, and it had an advocacy component, I think this would be exactly what we would be mobilized to be able to handle. So, you know, do we have enough peers out here now that we’ve been doing this for several years to be able to establish, you know, really get that off the ground?

DANIELLE DONALDSON: Well, I do think, like, that this is the moment that’s primed for it. Like, if there’s ever been a time to create a peer specialist association of some sort that allows us to advocate together, you know, a group voice and all of that. You know, this seems to be…

CHERYL DEHAVEN: That’s why I’m using it to centralize my efforts, go there, and what I can share personally on LinkedIn and my own Facebook page. But because I do feel like that is a potential there. And I hope that one day we’ll be able to establish more formalized so that when things like this happen, we have a voice. We know where to go.

DANIELLE DONALDSON: Right now, we’re all like, Right, right. So what’s your next step going to be? What do you think you’re going to do next in this?

CHERYL DEHAVEN: My goal is to put together a little informational sheet on what you can do, what I know now, and what I’m going to be learning in future conversations in the next couple of days, as I have opportunities to connect with people in high places who know this stuff inside of and out. So I’m hoping to put together just what can I do? What can you do? And just outline all the different pathways that people can make their voices heard, but also feel like they have the opportunity to communicate. I want to get some guidance from somebody, like from the VACSB, what about all the peers that are working within that system of care and may be afraid to speak out? You know, they’ve certainly got to have some guidance on that. So finding out what is the, you know, I would encourage people to talk to their employer, but it would be nice if we could get more information. I mean, I also think that the advocacy trainings and information, the peer training manual is key in understanding how to be a good advocate, right? That can be a fine line too, but, so, you know, really getting, you know, if advocacy is your thing and you want to be more involved, then, you know, it’s all about learning how to do that appropriately and meaningfully. And there’s a lot of recorded sessions. I think Mental Health Virginia has one on how to advocate.

DANIELLE DONALDSON: Yeah, I think almost, you know what I mean? Yeah, there’s several organizations here in Virginia that have online advocacy trainings that you can watch. Yeah.

CHERYL DEHAVEN: I think that’s another tool. So, as I gather information, I want to put together like a, you know, a handout that I can share that people can pass around and give them that how can we speak up.

DANIELLE DONALDSON: Are there any other resources that you know that you can share with the audience? I mean, you mentioned SAARA did something. Was that recorded and available publicly?

CHERYL DEHAVEN: It was recorded, it’s on YouTube, it’s available on their website. And that was DBHDS response to inform and address that information. Okay, so you can watch the whole thing.

DANIELLE DONALDSON: So that’s available out there.

CHERYL DEHAVEN: And you can comment in the comments of the YouTube video, which I did. Right? So anywhere we can get our voice out.

DANIELLE DONALDSON: Yeah, no, I agree, because, you know, the algorithms do pick up your comments out there in the internet.

CHERYL DEHAVEN: And if you’re inclined to sign the petition, don’t just sign, but share it, share it with your family, your friends, media, anybody you can think of. Help get the word out, because that’s no one of us can carry this.

DANIELLE DONALDSON: Oh, and I think that’s an important point, is to share it even with people who aren’t working within the peer recovery workforce, like share it with your friends, share it with your family, share it with, yeah, your employers and colleagues and co-workers.

CHERYL DEHAVEN: We have some brilliant minds out here, Danielle. You know that. And I just had a little open to whoever meeting yesterday about this and had 20 people show up. And, you know, we just shared ideas and stuff, but some of the ideas in that group too were kind of outside of the box. And I hope that that person will come back and share that on the VPRSN. I’m asking people to share their insights there because…

DANIELLE DONALDSON: Yeah, I really hope they do, because I would love to hear this out-of-box idea.

CHERYL DEHAVEN: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I want to hear, you know.

DANIELLE DONALDSON: But yeah, you need brainstorming for sure.

CHERYL DEHAVEN: Oh my gosh. Yeah, yeah. I was just so excited. And, you know, but at the same time, just, you know, there are a lot of people who are concerned, but they’re also concerned why, why they want to know why.

DANIELLE DONALDSON: Yeah. Well, yeah, I think a lot of us want to know why.

CHERYL DEHAVEN: We keep wanting to know why. You know, their response on that, Sarah platform conversation didn’t answer that.

DANIELLE DONALDSON: Right.

CHERYL DEHAVEN: Right. Well enough. Yeah.

DANIELLE DONALDSON: Well, and it is, it’s a very compelling question. I think we all want to know why. Like, it just doesn’t make sense. But yeah.

CHERYL DEHAVEN: So I would just encourage people to stay tuned, keep on anything that makes you go, huh? Speak up. Yeah.

DANIELLE DONALDSON: And hopefully, we’ll keep talking about it. I hope that we keep talking about it until we’ve made something change.

CHERYL DEHAVEN: The other thing I thought was really cool is that you can post on the VPRSN anonymously. I know on the backend, the administrator could probably see who that is.

DANIELLE DONALDSON: I don’t think so.

CHERYL DEHAVEN: No? Okay. So that would be something too, because I think that’s a great pathway for people who are not sure or feel like getting their name out there into these conversations. But they could do it privately, anonymously in that Facebook group with the Virginia PRS Network. And I think that could be helpful.

DANIELLE DONALDSON: Absolutely.

CHERYL DEHAVEN: Because what if there’s peers out here who think it’s a good idea? I’d want to hear that.

DANIELLE DONALDSON: Well, I’m curious about that too. I’m sure there are some. And I would like to hear their point of view as well.

CHERYL DEHAVEN: Yeah. Yeah. I think we have to find out. So I think that’s another, maybe if we can find out more about the back end of that, those anonymous posts and let people know.

DANIELLE DONALDSON: Yeah. That it is possible to share your thoughts without necessarily outing yourself. You know.

CHERYL DEHAVEN: Yes.

DANIELLE DONALDSON: That’s available as an option.

CHERYL DEHAVEN: That will be on my list.

DANIELLE DONALDSON: Yeah. But it is. I mean, I don’t think there is a way to see even as an admin, who the anonymous person is. So I think it does preserve your privacy. Although don’t quote me out entirely.

CHERYL DEHAVEN: I know. I know.

DANIELLE DONALDSON: I’ll be honest.

DANIELLE DONALDSON: I haven’t gone on as an admin of a Facebook group. I’ve never tried to find out who the identity of the anonymous person is. Right. But I can also tell you that it looks anonymous to me as well as an admin. So, but I also haven’t tried to game the system either. But I do think your anonymity is preserved.

CHERYL DEHAVEN: So I think that’s also an opportunity for folks.

DANIELLE DONALDSON: Sure. Yeah.

CHERYL DEHAVEN: Yeah.

DANIELLE DONALDSON: Baby steps.

CHERYL DEHAVEN: It is baby steps. Well, my next PRS training class is on advocacy.

DANIELLE DONALDSON: Awesome.

CHERYL DEHAVEN: And, you know, so since this is a hot topic, you know, I will be pointing them to those resources as well and, you know, giving them the opportunity to choose, you know, possibilities of advocacy as they go on into this field. You know, what’s possible?

DANIELLE DONALDSON: Yeah.

CHERYL DEHAVEN: Yeah.

DANIELLE DONALDSON: Well, thank you so much for taking this time today to talk with me. I really appreciate it. Like I said, I’m going to do my best to get this out as soon as possible, because I know this is very timely, and we want to get as many voices talking about this as possible. So yeah, thank you so much, and have a wonderful day. And thank you everyone.

CHERYL DEHAVEN: I’ll post out the information.

DANIELLE DONALDSON: Oh yeah. Actually, do you have any resources you want to share over the recording? I’m also happy to add, I will be creating a episode page on our web page for this. And so if you have any links to resources, I can include them on that page so people can find what we’ve been speaking about today more easily. So if you’re interested in interacting with some of these advocacy opportunities, head to the web page for this particular episode, and you can find some links that will send you to the information we’ve been talking about today. So on that note, I will thank everyone for listening to us today, and we hope to hear from you all again soon.